Curse

Dark-NighT · Apr 19, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

I love sins, i have 2 of them, one is to become legendary survivor, but how i still need to figure that out, the other one is for farming and completing campaigns and unlocking skills for my survivor. I am in the realm of torment now with my sin and i've never gotten so fast over there than any other profession, ive done most of nightfall with 4 other characters, but the sin really blasted through it, i reckon a good 5 hours from consulate docks to the bone palace, Imo that's pretty fast for playing alone.

Sins own pve if it's done right, and i had a blast going through NF, atleast it's never boring with a sin because it can get pretty exciting with big mobs, and still walk out there alive

Shuuda · Apr 19, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

The Moebius BD combo works as plain pressure, similar to how a Dervish is pressure. It cannot execute a spike in the middle of pressuring, it cannot provide support in the midst of pressuring, it can only pressure, and in a predictable way. Balanced warriors may have the lower end in terms of raw damage, but the versatility of a Shock Axe, for example, is imo more useful than that raw power. Temple Strike isn't really used now, is it?

True, but don't forget that my bar won't just contain Moebius + Death blossom, I need some skills to start the combo, so I could take skills like leaping mantis for snare and exausting assault for interrupt + exaustion (which is nasty for many monks) I could take Impale for more damage and deep wound. As for Temple strike, I use it, and like it, awsome in many situations.

Samurai-JM · Apr 19, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Moebius/DB is actually a very quick killing combo. Its no 4 attack spike, but keep in mind Death Blossom is the single strongest dual attack(in terms of pure damage) that an assassin can get. Each hit gives between 60-80 damage, and it hits twice! Sure Blades of Steel is stronger, but it takes 4 times longer to recharge

I still use Yanman's combo a lot:

[skill]Disrupting Stab[/skill][skill]Exhausting Assault[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill]

I'll usually throw critical defenses and critical strike in there too. It kills very fast, and it is rarely countered since theres no hex! When people see assassin hexes they already know its coming, so the monk throws up prot spirit and you lose.

LightningHell · Apr 20, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

True, but don't forget that my bar won't just contain Moebius + Death blossom, I need some skills to start the combo, so I could take skills like leaping mantis for snare and exausting assault for interrupt + exaustion (which is nasty for many monks) I could take Impale for more damage and deep wound. As for Temple strike, I use it, and like it, awsome in many situations.

I'm not sure, playing as a monk, that exhaustion is a large issue at all. I have a low energy set, a mid energy set, and a high energy set. I'd just have to swap to my 70-energy set to cast.

In an 8v8, there IS another monk watching your back, as well as a whole midline. Although you also illustrate my point that the Assassin was implemented very poorly; they work, they do their job (sometimes too well), but they can't do anything else, and nor do they require any skill (ingame) to use.

Dazed isn't all that dangerous if it isn't a split. Besides, using Temple Strike means you're using your character to apply Dazed as the end result of your work (can't think of another word to replace), and you're not doing your "killing" job. Not unlike a Warrior taking Skull Crack, or Headbutt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

Moebius/DB is actually a very quick killing combo. Its no 4 attack spike, but keep in mind Death Blossom is the single strongest dual attack(in terms of pure damage) that an assassin can get. Each hit gives between 60-80 damage, and it hits twice! Sure Blades of Steel is stronger, but it takes 4 times longer to recharge

I still use Yanman's combo a lot:

[skill]Disrupting Stab[/skill][skill]Exhausting Assault[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill]

I'll usually throw critical defenses and critical strike in there too. It kills very fast, and it is rarely countered since theres no hex! When people see assassin hexes they already know its coming, so the monk throws up prot spirit and you lose.

Good monks > wtf I can't see hex lolol. How do you think monks counter warrior spikes? Y

I'd advise you to throw away Critical Defenses.

And also, I quote my last bit, since I don't think anyone read it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

EDIT: I should say why I think it isn't a well thought out concept.

Firstly, single-man spikes don't promote player skill. Usual damage dealers, for example, Warriors, cannot spike down a near full-health character by themselves, and so a single-man spiking machine would have to have some kind of uber damage dealing skills. PvP should be primarily based on player skill, not on who can spam buttons faster on recharge. Assassins seem to reward too much for too little, and in the opposite end of the spectrum, too little for too much.

Of course, there are some offshoots like the Moebius Strike-Death Blossom, as mentioned above. However, this is very prone to any significant pressure, as a Warrior has effectively 10/30 more armor than the Assassin and can overextend more, as well as the Warrior's higher vaule in terms of disruption and other support.

An Assassin can be said to be a caster class instead of a melee class. That is, an Assassin isn't here unless he has skills with him. Casters can pressure, it has been proven that they can. But melee - specificially, Warriors - are valued simply because they are more flexible in terms of pressure, due to the added disruption and their main pressure not needing any resources - you simply flail your weapon, and you are already either 1) hitting somebody for damage or 2) making the opponent expend time and energy to neutralize you, as well as giving up minor positional advantage due to kiting. Assassins only constitute a threat when they expend energy; you could say that it's less profitable in terms of energy costs.

Since it cannot provide all that, the Assassin has one very powerful chain. This refers to the single-target spiking.

There are some given solutions from the community, including:
1) Making the Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts attributes more usable in terms of support
2) Create some form of Energy Management that does not require you to hit an opponent
3) Scrapping the combo system, and replace with reasonable conditional attacks (e.g. health is below 75%, target is moving/attacking/casting, etc. Hexed isn't good, for example, because as this prerequisite tends to require specific building, it is made conditionally better than other similar skills, and the start of a gimmick.)

That is not to say that an Assassin is an underpowered class. It fulfills what ANet wanted it to do, sometimes too well compared to the skill of the player running it, but crap at others.

Hope that explains it.

Not So Koolaid · Apr 20, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Slightly off topic.. but it always seems like core classes are the only ones that are never bashed.

Back on topic: Anet set up Guild Wars so that every class would take skill to play.

Warriors: You need to know blocking, and how and who to pressure

Mesmers: You need to target well, and skill timing

Rangers: You need to also target well, and know who to pressure.

Elementalists: You need to know nuke placement and energy management.

Monks: You need to know who to heal when, energy management, survivability

Necromancers: You need to know targeting, and skill timing

Assassins: You need to know what you can handle, who to spike / pressure, and when to move

Ritualists: You need to know where to place spirits, what spirits to place, heal timing and in some cases, who to spike

Paragons: You need to know when certain skills need to be utilized to protect your party, and who to spike

Dervishes: You need to know how to survive, and provide adequate pressure.

I know this is a really rough outline of what it takes to play each class, but my point is that no class is "easy" to play. They all take skill.

And yes, I do play sin.

LightningHell · Apr 20, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not So Koolaid

Warriors: You need to know blocking, and how and who to pressure

Assassins: You need to know what you can handle, who to spike / pressure, and when to move

I'd disagree with most of your points, but since this thread is about Assassins, I'll just focus on them.

A general melee character (talking about PvP here) has to learn positioning, targeting (in terms of pressuring, since spiking is usually called by a caller), and how to use utility while not hampering their main objective.

An Assassin bar is made for spiking. The targeting is done for them, by the caller; they don't have utility on their bar; and shadowstepping takes care of positioning (and kiting, if you're using Shadow Prison or Dark Prison) away.

Shuuda · Apr 20, 2007, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Most of what you said is true, but....

Quote:

An Assassin bar is made for spiking.

.....Ahem.....

LightningHell · Apr 20, 2007, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Give me one mainstream Assassin build that's made for spiking.

No, Moebius + DB doesn't count.

Yanman.be · Apr 20, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Why not? (12char limit)

Twilight_Theory · Apr 20, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Give me one mainstream Assassin build that's made for spiking.

No, Moebius + DB doesn't count.

lmao how can it not count its mainstream and it is a spike.

LightningHell · Apr 20, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

I take it you mean it isn't a spike.

I really don't see any Moebius + DB sins running around. 1-2 at max, but you don't see them a-plenty.

Samurai-JM · Apr 20, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

The only Mainstream assassin build is still the SP/WhateverIAS build thats running amok. BoA nerf didnt seem to do much... I still see people running BoA just because they are so used to it! They call me a noob for using a DB build with Impale while they sit there with no IAS half the time... But a simple Pressure build would be a basic Jagged Stike -> Wild Strike -> Death Blossom build with something simple like AoD for survivability and positioning. Sounds weak, but it actually does keep decent pressure on the enemy. With Zealous Daggers, 8 or 13 in Critical Strikes, and maybe Malicious Strike for added damage/energy, it could add decent pressure in the frontlines. Its no mainstream of course, because 90% of people lack the basic human function of thought!

no offense of course.

And yes, I was exaggerating just a bit about the 90%. More like 88 I suppose...

Am I A Good Sin · Apr 21, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

WTF r u saying? A sin isn't needed in a mission? Its wanted not needed. Always thought that u wanted what u needed? Also wouldn't u throw out something u wanted for something u needed? So y don't ppl reject sins if they don't need em?
As for me. I've found myself needed in many situations. ( 1 was a run through Elona Reach ) I for some reason decided to play my shadow form runner when we went thru this mish. The guy that was running had to go thru this mob of over 30 guys ( kinda aggroed them all in a group I geuss ) so he said " Sin I NEED u to shadow form thru this mob so I can get thru". See a sin can be needed. Also the Mobious + DB works really well. Y take out critical defences? It allows u to stay in the fight much longer also reducing the amount of time and energy monks spend healing u. I use that type of build in PvE and PvP and I killed 2 warriors at once with it. Critical defences is an enchant btw and is kept up almost indefinitely in a fight. Yes my team won that match :-P I was the last guy alive. Another instance where I was needed. Another time was in the boreas seabed mish. The Kraken was nearly dead as were we all. He fired off 1 of his AoE atks to kill us all and I put Shadow form up at the last second. This let me live and my teams deaths charged the staff. I dropped it and we won. Afterwards they said " WOW I'm glad we took u otherwise we wouldn't have won. C ya later. " just a few examples where iwas needed.

Shuuda · Apr 21, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

*goes to hospital due to an overdose of bad grammar*

Am I A Good Sin · Apr 21, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Sry bout the bad grammar above. I'm using my phone to type this and I was close to losing service so I didn't have time to use correct grammar. Btw this is the internet long as ur point gets across thickheaded ppl grammar won't matter. Sins FTW!
Btw I agree that a sin using mending is laughable... I nearly died on an overdose of laughter. Don't even put me near thre same level as the guy that used a mending sin.

LightningHell · Apr 21, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

I think you should stop referring to "thickheaded people".

In PvE nothing is required. Nothing is "needed". I can get through the game with my Elementalist naked, trashtalking any/everyone in sight, assuming Normal mode, as of April 2007 (insert date here). PvE is (was) easy enough that anything was able to get through; it was designed so that whatever build you found you had fun with, you could play with it. That you had a use in a rare, and specific scenario or two doesn't prove that you are "needed" automatically.

I gotta change a bit about my post, though. I originally said that a 'Sin using Temple Strike was akin to a Warrior using Headbutt; I correct that to a 'Sin using Temple Strike is akin to a Warrior frenzywanding, and swapping to an axe to spike with Executioner's-Headbutt-Dismember.

Tundra · Apr 21, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

I liked assassin until i bought prophecy. I figured out, that there is nothing to do there with my sin. All good builds are based on assassins elites and skills, but there are no.
Im thinking of deleting it, because i have all my char. slots full.

Am I A Good Sin · Apr 21, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bishop Stone

Yes, Spartan Link, you are right I am stating my point of view, my point of view from playing the game, No i can not say that all assassins are like this just many of the ones I have come across...And no I wont play the class, I really dont want to, I dont want to be a backstabber, spike and run/hide sort of guy, I dont think I would play one well... I am honest about it and I am honest about what I say is my point of view. Honestly since you put me in the corner then yes they are useless they are not needed on any team they can be wanted but they are never needed. They can sub for a warrior they can even handle their own but needed no... not now not ever... Will I play with a sin? yes I will... some of my friends play sins and I WANT to play with them... but are they needed? I dont think so.. there are missions in PvE where a necro is needed, where a Ele is needed, where a tank is needed... and of course a Monk is always needed but a sin? no I dont know if any mission where a sin is Needed. <- I have finished all 3 campains gotten titles but that beside the point... I just dont see where any of them would be easier with a sin on the team

Just a little question for those that use henchies do you pick the sin henchies? and for those that finished the game did you make sure that the sin henchies were with you? or did you choose the tanks, the eles and the rangers? (Im not mentioning healers cause well duh)
Oh and before the MMs answer that question did you take the henchie sin for the body or for the skills?
Again I say I have not played a sin nor do I think I ever will but from what I have seen, experienced and discussed... I stand by all that I have said.

EDIT- never once have I or anyone else I know say "If we had a sin we would have gotten that mission" where I have heard a few times "if we only had an SS" or "if we had an MM" or "we needed a nuker" or even say "if we had a good tank"

Where the hell do u get off saying ---- about sins? U haven't even played 1! U can't say anything about them. I meant to quote this earlier but forgot btw. Lightning said that nothing is needed and ur saying necros and warriors r needed. Who do I agree with? Neither ( cause u both say sins rnt needed ). Sins r needed for heavily defencive teams. U say that a sin replaces a warrior? Wrong again! Sins don't "replace" anything. Sins r sins not replaceable warriors. If they were replacements then they would have swords instead of daggers and better armour. And how do u get that a sin is a backstabber? Bad experience in life or something? Idk and idc just don't bring it to the game ( if that is the case. If not then explain things more thoroughly ). And don't ever call me scum. Sin is my favorite character. Ppl like u make me sick because they stereotype a class. The more thorough stereotypers say necro = MM warrior = tank ele = nuker ( usually right but I know plenty of ppl that don't nuke a place to kingdom come ) and the list goes on for each class. So don't ever streotype a class u haven't played or talk ---- about it. Go play the class then come back and talk about it. And I mean play it for around a month not an hour or 2. The sin is a class that takes a lot of work. Some ppl used to refer to it as Guild Wars on hard mode ( which has finally come ). Well that's all I'm gonna rage about for now. Idc u guys can call me a noob or disagree netirely. When it comes down to it I might never even meet u in the game/life at all. Oh and btw can u clarify on backstabber. Expendable killer. Scum.

Samurai-JM · Apr 22, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Panaku > PUGS

although I havent done much in factions lately, I usually take 2 monks, the earth hench, and either an interupter or support hench. I do all the damage with heros, and I do take zenmai sometimes

Silk Weaver · Apr 22, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

The targeting is done for them, by the caller; they don't have utility on their bar; and shadowstepping takes care of positioning (and kiting, if you're using Shadow Prison or Dark Prison) away.

Have to disagree with you there.

Assassins, assuming SP right now, have become less prominent on flagstand battles as far as I know, but the "one man spike" ability is still an asset in Splits.

The ability to one-man-spike, of course, has nothing to do with skill, just as in 1v1, spamming Mark of Rodgort and Fireball is not really "skill". A good sin, however, is much more effecient than a mediocre one, for the reasons the poster before stated.

Does an SP Sin take as much skill as, say, a good ranger? I don't think so, of course, but that's both bias and irrelevant. A proper sin is firstly important, and secondly takes skill. It can take down a target very quickly. Holy Veil, Dshot, Natural Stride can easily stop one, but it does not change the fact that it can be very dangerous. The enemy's monk/healer can be galed or D-shot/Savage Shot/Dazed during the spike, Natural Stride might be on recharge or removed by SP (believe it or not, NS is needed to dodge pindowns and for simple pressure, so you can't always keep it on the ready when facing a sin split), Ranger could be blinded be aforementioned ele (also believe it or not, Blinding Surge cannot always be interrupted, and terrain obstruction may play a role in this), Dshot/Savage may be on recharge or on aftercast, due likely to the attempt at interrupting said bsurge, or perhaps he missed simply because he was targeting the monk. Great. It can happen, it does happen, and it can happen against players who don't suck. Superior tactics and luck play a role here.

Similarily, there are of course as many, or even more way teams without assassins can screw you up, and this will depend on how well it is played. Noone is going to call for the sin, in a small split group, every player's personal decisions will matter, there are often not enough time to communicate strategy, whether to spike the monk, the ranger, or the npc archer unless every player on the split is keenly aware and ready for the opportunities. It is the effieciency in which the assassin and its group capitilize on the the opponent's mistakes (if you can even call not being able to interupt Bsurge or whatever a "mistake") that decides the outcome. So this is as Not So Koolaid has suggested, the positioning, target choice, reaction, and other tactical details which make a good assassin, or indeed any split player stand out. Positioning matters even with shadow step! Note NPCs, note surprise spikes, note, obstruction, note LoDs or reinforcements and retreating.

In conclusion~ to simply say that Assassins are cookie cutter spam all attack skills players is overly simplistic, and one must take into account the many tactical details and shortcomings of the assassin a player would need to overcome. I included histriography, I'm such a good boy.

Annnyway. We've done Moebius + DB split with a Rit before. It has definetly been used more than once or twice on top hundreds. Take it this way, it's about the fastest way a 2 man split can kill the lord at VoD. I don't like sins, Lightning knows that, but you have to take into account their usefullness as well.

PvE wise, they are usable, but not needed. They -can- deal DPS, but then anyone who's not retarded can do it better than 90% of the players. They are good for farming, running, and various specialized task, but in general they aren't needed. Name me a situation where they are vital or makes a task a lot easier. MONKS certainly make lots of tasks a lot easier, especially when you have to keep soemone alive as the primary objective, so I disagree with that assessment. The same cannot be said for a sin though.